Comments on: Assignment 3: Was your game a game? (due 9/12) https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/ Course web for CS679 Fall 2011 Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:22:10 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.11 By: alexlangenfeld https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-80 Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:54:25 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-80 (very late, oops. still going to do it)

Schell’s Questions applied to Bastion:
1. Games are entered willfully.
Yep downloaded the game to try it out and to entertain myself for a while.

2. Games have goals.
The goal of the game is to restore the world you inhabit after its recent destruction as a result of “the calamity.” This involve collecting items at the guidance of and old man you find at the Bastion.

3. Games have conflict.
It is you (the kid) vs. the creatures of the post apocalyptic world you now inhabit.

4. Games have rules.
The post pronounced rules of Bastion have to do with the survival of the kid. You have a collection of stats that are applied when fighting against enemies.

5. Games can be won and lost.
As with most modern games, loss in a true sense is not really possible. You can face detriment through delay when you main character dies, but much of your progress is retained and you get to repeatedly try to conquer the challenge that bested you. Winning would be completing the game, and losing i guess would be coming to a challenge to great to overcome that would force you to stop playing.

6. Games are interactive.
The game is almost constantly in the control of the player. Similar to half-life, you are not removed from control when story is being exposed. Most of the story is given to you via an omniscient narrator, that comments on your actions as well as unveils plot elements.

7. Games have challenge.
This game has a rich and challenging combat system. Battle requires skill and strategy.

8. Games can create their own internal value.
This game has several RPG elements that are developed through the increasing stats of you character. The stronger you become the easier it is to defeat difficult monsters. This create a desire to better your character, which gives value to things in the game that are not tangible in the real world.

9. Games engage players.
I found my short stint with this game to be extremely engaging. The combination of dynamic narration and interesting story coupled with rich combat was successful at engaging me on different levels.

10. Games are closed, formal systems.
As with most video games this applies in the nature of how you play it. It is a single executable program that maintains state that is change according to hard code that you can not change.

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By: jcarpenter2 https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-75 Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:20:30 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-75 Q1: Building a civilization from scratch is satisfying.
Q2: The goal is to build a great civilization. You build a great civilization so you can win. You win by various means common to empire-building games: by world domination, by diplomacy, by extreme technological superiority, or a few other things.
Q3: There are barbarians, warring factions, city-states, and great empires. Some of them are trying to win the game themselves, while others are just a nuisance.
Q4: You can’t move your guys two times in one turn. You can’t build too close to another empire or they will get mad. You can’t have your scientists build a chariot before you invent the wheel.
Q5: I haven’t won a game or lost a game yet, but according to the tutorial it’s possible. You win by winning. You do that by doing the stuff from Q2. You can lose if you make other empires mad at you and go to war and find that you’re much less powerful than they are.
Q6: This is a turn-based game, so the interactivity is very structured. At the very least, you have to hit “Next Turn” a bunch of times or nothing happens. Hopefully you also click on other things, and in so doing orchestrate scouts, armies, and cities.
Q7: In many strategy games, it’s possible to just dominate everything if you play well enough. It looks like Civ 5 is different: you have to pick your battles. In that way, it is differently challenging from other strategy games; instead of refining your techniques until you can crush everything, you have to refine your techniques, dominate a few things, and maintain peaceful terms with everything else.
Q8: It’s satisfying to build a civilization from scratch.
Q9: This is a sticky one for Civ 5 so far. The games are very long. I haven’t finished one yet because I always start a new game when I play it. Now that I know how the heck the game works, I’ll try to save a game and come back to it in the near future. What I see now is some monotony. You build workers, tell your workers to build farms, tell your scouts to explore…. your workers finish the farms so you move them to adjacent tiles and have them build quarries… until every tile in your empire is filled, and then you buy more…. Hopefully as a game continues the set of things that the player does on a turn gets significantly larger. At least this isn’t Assassin’s Creed, though. My opinion is that Assassin’s Creed utterly failed at captivation. You go to three cities three times each to kill people. Nine total missions. Each mission consists of pretty much exactly the same steps. The entertainment in that game came only from climbing up walls and complaining loudly to other people in the room about how uninteresting the game was, besides that you can climb up walls.
Q10: I took math 571. I know all about formal systems. Games are definitely formal systems. A small set of rules (the source code, or even the set of processor instructions, depending on how deep you want to go) causes all sorts of emergent behavior (little colored dots appear on a surface, and they change colors in interesting ways whenever someone bangs on some buttons or moves around a hunk of plastic with some optical equipment on the bottom). I wonder if games are turing complete.

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By: wasmundt https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-72 Tue, 13 Sep 2011 01:20:24 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-72 Age of Empires Online – Schell reading
Q1. Games are entered willfully.
Yes, for me it’s almost a bonding experience that I have had/continue to have with my roommates.
Q2. Games have goals.
There are two general types of games, victory point and annihilation. One you control the victory point marker for a set amount of time, and the other is you completely wipe out the opposing side.
Q3. Games have conflict.
It’s a game about World War II, of course there is conflict. :)
Q4. Games have rules.
Certain players can do certain things, you can only have a limited amount of population, you get a certain number of resources based on the territory covered.
Q5. Games can be won and lost.
Yes, you either get annihilated or you annihilate someone else.
Q6. Games are interactive.
You have constant control of your army be it controlling the macro movements of them with the mouse and keyboard or thinking what doctrine you will chose. There is constant interaction.
Q7. Games have challenge.
The computers AI is a bit limited, but they adjust this by giving the computer stronger stats in the game, thus making the user need to overwhelming outsmart the opponent on the hardest difficulty. Further the online multiplayer aspect adds for unlimited challenges.
Q8. Games can create their own internal value.
The campaign takes place during one of the most critical moments in our recent history. Trying to stop Hitler from taking over the world is a pretty critical mission.
Q9. Games engage players.
The games on average are 45 minutes long and they seem to take about 15-20, it’s a very captivating game.
Q10. Games are closed, formal systems.
This is very true for CoH, it’s a realistic RTS game, it does its best to give as realistic a representation and historically accurate as it can.

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By: ryanbehnke https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-71 Tue, 13 Sep 2011 00:54:44 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-71 Left 4 Dead 2 – Schell reading…

Q1) What’s more fun than shooting up a horde of zombies?
Q2) The goal is to get from one safe room to the next and then to a final safe destination to be rescued before the zombies get to you.
Q3) The zombie apocalypse is occurring and all the zombies want you and your friends to be one of them.
Q4) Well there’s limitations on guns and ammunition. Hunters are the only zombies that can pounce. Smokers are the only zombies that can shoot out their tongue. And if you startle a witch, you may want to run, because she’s probably going to kill you.
Q5) If the zombies kill you before you reach your destination, you lose. Otherwise, you win.
Q6) You can pick up weapons, open doors, start car alarms to awaken a horde of zombies, and pick up health packs to heal up later.
Q7) When you run into a tank, you and the other three guys better be ready to unload on this guy, because if your not coordinated enough as a team, he can kill all of you in a matter of seconds.
Q8) This game involves a lot of strategy. For example, if you light a tank on fire, over time he’ll eventually die. Also, when playing online as zombies, it’s best to all attack at once so the other team gets confused, panics, and dies.
Q9) Playing online can get very competitive and it’s interesting to see what other teams do as strategy for each map.
Q10) There aren’t zombies just running around the streets trying to infect you in the real world, nor is this even an accurate simulation of how the zombie apocalypse might occur, but its fun to think that it could be. However, there is a very difficult game type called realism that’s a more accurate simulation.

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By: Andrew Zoerb https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-70 Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:23:35 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-70 I played the game Minecraft.

Q1: I wanted to play the game even before the assignment.
Q2: Minecraft doesn’t really have any strict goals. There’s an inherent goal to not die at night, but that’s about it.
Q3: Trying not to get killed by the monsters at night is the conflict.
Q4: There are rules as to how things work in Minecraft, but there are not as many rules that are just made up “because”.
Q5: You can die, but you’ll always respawn.
Q6: Your character responds to your actions.
Q7: It’s challenging to make complex circuits and things.
Q8: Allowing players to use their creativity adds the value.
Q9: You get caught up in what you’re building as you’re building it.
Q10: Minecraft is completely separate from the real world.

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By: Joe Kohlmann https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-69 Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:21:39 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-69 In reply to Joe Kohlmann.

Also, this is in reference to Mass Effect 2. Ugh, apparently it’s my first day on the Internet.

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By: Joe Kohlmann https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-68 Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:20:43 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-68 (I published this comment to the Reading 1 post. Sorry about that.)

First off, is this a game? Undeniably.

1. Games are entered willfully.

Mass Effect 2 is certainly a game I purchased on my own, without anyone forcing me to play it. Further, the player has voluntary control over Commander Shepard, their avatar in the game world. I received no financial compensation or “benefit”, to borrow from academic consent forms, as a result of playing this game.

2. Games have goals.

Mass Effect 2 has macro- and micro-level goals. The overall macro goal of the entire game is to build a team and lead a potential suicide mission to stop the Collectors, an agent of the Reapers (the big baddies of the Mass Effect series). The micro-level goals apply to a specific game mechanic or a specific mission—for example, the goal of the planet mining mini-game is to gather enough resources to build ship and equipment upgrades, while the . Further, the game has social goals—the current mission’s practical goal might be to eliminate an adversary or to protect a family member, but the social goal of completing the mission is to earn the loyalty of a squad member.

3. Games have conflict.

Of course, it seems like half the galaxy wants Shepard dead (or would prefer if Shepard had stayed dead…). There are internal conflicts, too, that apply to character relationships and even the player’s direct experience of the game. The game features memorable moments of inter-character conflict where Shepard’s decision results in the loss of a squad member’s loyalty. Further, the game has an ethics mechanic—Paragon/Renegade—that forces the player to define their experience and effectively live with a tough decision they make. This projection of moral conflict onto the player is an effective tool that makes the game a truly visceral and personal experience for each player, if only in what seems like a small detail (that’s up for debate, I think).

4. Games have rules.

From ammunition and fuel limits to experience points, physical boundaries, maneuvering limits (Shepard can’t jump!), Mass Effect 2 enforces several core mechanics, though in a flexible way, to the point that the player has a high degree of freedom when exploring the world through these rules.

5. Games can be won and lost.

In two ways, in fact—not only can Shepard die in a mission (or fail to satisfy some condition, resulting in a “Critical Mission Failure”), but if the player makes poor enough decisions throughout the entire game, Shepard may actually die during the suicide mission at the end. According to the developers, this prevents the player from importing their Shepard and his or her choices into Mass Effect 3, bringing a uniquely decisive end to the player’s character. Of course, Shepard can also survive the end mission with his entire squad intact. The player can otherwise “win” the game with any other combination of surviving squadmates.

6. Games are interactive.

With the exception of cutscenes, the player has full control of Shepard’s movement, actions and decisions. Furthermore, the environments within the game feature stores, non-player characters and other non-static objects.

7. Games have challenge.

Combat in Mass Effect 2 is certainly a challenge—in particular, I have really enjoyed my in-progress playthrough on the hardest difficulty level because it forces me to consider tactics, positioning, and all sorts of other factors that, if left neglected, will assuredly result in character death. Also, to return to a comment on Mass Effect 1, there are pivotal decisions in the game that challenge the player’s sense of justice, and may leave them wondering if they made the right choice.

8. Games can create their own internal value.

Mass Effect 2’s character development and relationship system gives players a reason to emotionally invest in the experience. Further, like any good story, movie or piece of writing, the themes of Mass Effect 2, such as xenophobia, ends and means, and loyalty, offer the player a chance to consider moral issues, learn “life lessons”, and gain insight into themselves and their own human experience outside the game.

9. Games engage players.

One need only visit the Bioware Social forums to see how passionate players are about Mass Effect. Many people devote their time and thought to discussing these games as games themselves, as works of art, as social commentary, and so much more. The satisfyingly flexible designs behind the combat, navigation, relationship and conversation systems in the game drive this engagement.

10. Games are closed, formal systems.

With regards to Schell’s idea of being “mentally in the game”, it’s entirely possible (encouraged, even) to make decisions in Mass Effect 2 that no sane or otherwise charitable human being would make in real life. You can be a badass, a saint, or somewhere in between, and you can completely divorce your Shepard character and his/her decisions from your own personality if you so choose. Meanwhile, the game’s various mechanics are clearly inter-related—while the planet mining mini-game may be distasteful for some, its purpose can be made very clear when the player loses a third of their squad on the way to the final mission, simply because they didn’t mine enough resources to adequately upgrade their ship. There are rules with interrelated consequences in this system, and each piece has a purpose in the whole.

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By: Tessa https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-66 Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:00:07 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-66 I played Age of Empires Online. According to Schell:

1) In this case no, but I would probably play it willfully too.
2) The game has subgoals (levels) but no real ultimate goal (apart from ‘keep leveling’)
3) Yes, almost all missions include an enemy that you should (partly) destroy.
4) There are definitely rules. Examples are ‘this type of unit hits this hard’, ‘this type of resource produces that product’ and ‘you can only have x people at a time’.
5) Most levels can be lost, although some of the (easier) levels are just introductions and very hard to lose. All levels/missions can be won.
6) You give commands to your people and you receive feedback.
7) Yes, some missions need more work/are a bigger challenge.
8) Yes, there is equipment and there are resources that can be traded to other players and are wanted.
9) Without the player, there would be no way to win a level.
10) Yes, there is no way to play AoEO outside of AoEO.

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By: dennispr https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-65 Mon, 12 Sep 2011 18:55:43 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-65 Deus EX: Human Revolution – Using the Schell reading

Q1. Games are entered willfully.
I would agree that Deus Ex was entered into willfully seeing as I decided to pick up and play the game myself. However, I would disagree that the converse is true. People have different play styles and just because I did not willingly play a game (say it was assigned or I’m playing it for research purposes) doesn’t mean it’s not a game.

Q2. Games have goals.
In Deus Ex there is a definite goal. You are given missions and you must complete them. That said, I’m not sure that this applies to all games. Say, for example, a player plays GTA in the sandbox format. Here there are no set goals for the player to achieve, still, it is a game. Minecraft also falls into this category as the goals are not defined.

Q3. Games have conflict.
Deus Ex does have conflict between the protagonist and antagonist. There is always something for the player to do. Now, in terms of the word “conflict” I’m not sure this necessarily has to be a “You against them” format. Take for example Flower where there is no real conflict UNLESS you consider the loss of your petals to be a conflict.

Q4. Games have rules.
Deus Ex certainly has rules, as, imo, do all games.

Q5. Games can be won and lost.
Deus Ex does have clear win and loss states, however, I’m still unconvinced that all games must. For our purpose, this seems to work for all classic games, however, I’m not sure how well it applies to games such as MMOs. Can you really win a Massive multiplayer online game like WOW? Same for Minecraft’s current build, can you beat Minecraft?

Q6. Games are interactive.
Deus Ex is certainly interactive. This definition, I feel, fits all games and often determines how fun they will be. It’s often very difficult to consider a game fun if it is not interactive.

Q7. Games have challenge.
I feel that this is a more accurate description of what a game is than win loss states. In all games there is some sort of challenge, this is true of the nontraditional games such as MMOs and Minecraft. Deus Ex is no exception.

Q8. Games can create their own internal value.
This is very true. There is no reason to care for a virtual object if there is no value created for them. This applies to in game credits, power ups, and lives. A good example of this is the fact that “Gold farmer” is a profession in some parts of the world. Someone values in game gold enough to pay other people to get it for them.

Q9. Games engage players.
I believe this to be true of good games. However, I would still say that you cannot say something is not a game simply if it does not engage you. FPSs are a good example of this conflict. Some people enjoy first person shooters while others see them as a waste of time. Obviously, this type of game engages some players while not engaging others. I found Deus Ex to be engaging, others may not.

Q10. Games are closed, formal systems.
Curiously, this depends on how you define the game. If you define it simply by the code generated to create a video game, then yes it is a closed formal system. This is also true of board games etc. Now, If you choose to see the societal impacts of the game (how people experience and interact with games) then no, games are not a closed formal system. They are systems that may change depending on the context that they are played in. I would say Deus Ex on the very basic level fits the description simply because it is compiled code that doesn’t change (unless you could dlc etc at which point it is no longer static).

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By: Xixi https://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-3-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-63 Mon, 12 Sep 2011 18:33:48 +0000 http://pages.graphics.cs.wisc.edu/679-11/2011/08/29/assignment-2-was-your-game-a-game/#comment-63 World of Warcraft – Schell reading
Q1. Yes, as world of warcraft is so well-known, I entered willfully after being told repeatedly how exciting it is.

Q2. There are always countless small short-term goals such as trying to accomplish a mission, also some long time goals as honor achievement.

Q3. Conflict is obvious in WOW as there are two hostile parties, alliance and tribe. In some server players from different parties are encouraged to kill each other for rewards. There are also conflicts inside one party as sometimes players will compete for resources such as herbs and gold mines.

Q4. World of Warcraft has huge number of rules, given countless configurations of different magic and supplement; it is trying to make this world realistic so people can devote themselves in it without feeling awkward.

Q5. Event of winning and losing happens all the time. In small battles players will end up killing the opponent or being killed. When a monster is killed by a team, team members will roll a dice to determine who wins the captured equipment.

Q6. Yes, players interact with NPCs for deals and missions; we also interact with each other when it comes to team battles.

Q7. Yes, WOW is definitely one of the most challenging games ever. Some tricks are so deliberately designed that it requires both skill and creativity.

Q8. The first thing a player needs to do in WOW is to create his/her own character. There are different ethnics and talents to choose from, even hair styles. Just like everyone in this world, a character needs to go through lots of experiences and hardships to become successful, internal value will definitely be built in this process.

Q9. Wow is not only to aggressive players who are eager to compete with others, it’s fun to those who just want something relaxing. You can go fishing, learn cooking, even train animals in WOW, those activities are just as attractive as battles when you are doing these in such majestic wonderland.

Q10. A formal, closed system is a key element that makes WOW successful, in a world that competition is so intense, it is necessary to keep everything balanced so it is fair for everybody, players will lose interest if the formal order is destroyed.

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